So I started watching JoJo on and off a while ago to find out what all the fuss is about, and I think the ultimate fate of Kars is a pretty good example of what !!KID FRIENDLY!! generally means.

13:05 - What DCAU Show/movie is this?

To be honest Wolverine is so old and his powers of regeneration so op that at some point one can arguer he has lived all of the worse that death fate backstories.

That completly.....and utterly acurate representationnof the internet😂😂😂

In my opinion, there is no fate worse than death, for death is *_final._* it CANNOT. Be undone, and if it can, that's not death. Any other fate can be recovered from, but not Death. Madness and even total psyche shattering can be healed. It just takes an absurd amount of time and outside effort. Death, however, is final.

"An eternity of suffering awaits you!" I chuckled a little there.

I still would love to see Red play Nier/drakengard someday. it say a lot that nearly every game in the franchise ends with an apocalypse, yet there's still a franchise and recurring characters.

"You are not going to kill your characters" ...half the characters of game of thrones

The song One by metallica describes one of the worst body horror fates. Can't see hear speak move feel covered in burns no limbs fed through a tube and hooked to machines to live unable to die.

I'd like to see a trope talk of subverting expectations. Of how film creators fail and succeed at subverting the expectations of the audience.

I just don't see how ANYTHING can be worse than eternity. Not even insanity will save you. Infinite time loops are at the absolute top for me.

Eternal waking . . .

immortality is a fate worse than death change my mind

Red: when the audience won’t believe you will kill the hero you have to go for a fate worse than death Me, as a writer: not only will I kill the hero in a way you believe thematically but I will then bring them back making clear that death is no longer on the table for him as a foil for the rest of the cast only to have the hero get kidnapped by the big bad who uses his inability to die against him and turn that fate worse than death into a brand new character arc for the hero Also me: “I call it recycling”

Here is one other avenue for creativity for fates worse than death: using fates worse than death to illustrate character. For example, tailoring a fate worse than death to the specific character experiencing it (or the character inflicting it) is a potentially interesting avenue for character development. For example, maybe a character’s punishment is being forced to be constantly with a character he or she absolutely despises (which other characters wouldn’t consider such a bad thing). Even better, the character’s choices could help cause the character worse than death. For example, in Sartre’s No Exit, the characters’ choices actively turn that space into a living hell. If they acted differently, they could get themselves out of it at any time, but they don’t. You’re right that many of standard fates worse than death are often blaze and interchangeable. I wonder if part of the reason for their uncreativity has to do with their universality: for example, pretty much any character would experience eternal body torture as a bad thing (maybe except for an extremely masochistic character or something). Tailoring fates worse than death to specific characters could allow for much greater creativity.

Ed...ward...

“body horror” *traumatic flashbacks to human centipede movie*

I know you don't really take requests, but it occurred to me today that there's a really conspicuous and fun trope in animation that you haven't ever talked about, and I've love to hear your take on it, and that is: transformation sequences (e.g. Sailor Moon, She-Ra)

if u haven’t already, i would love to see a video of “the nobody” character trope. Like Hutch from “Nobody” or Rango from “Rango

I came here looking for JoJo comments, I was not disappointed

One of my favorite examples of this trope is Porky at the end of Mother 3. He's immortal, but could be killed by injuries, so he seals himself inside the absolutely safe capsule. It's impossible to harm, both from the outside and inside. He's just stuck there, sitting completely immobile, for eternity. The ultimate solitary confinement.

Sweeney Todd.

also johnny got his gun, that's pretty unpleasant

don't look up daemonculaba

One example I'm drawn to with Fates Worse Than Death is Dishonored. Not really in what the dude goes through, but how it ties to morality (note: I will be talking about the first targets in both Dishonored games): In every mission bar the third mission in the first game, you have the choice of killing the target or disposing them via an external method. Kill Thaddeus Campbell, Ramsey, Pendleton Brothers, Kirin Jindosh, or remove them in a non-lethal way. For Low Chaos, you need to spare all of them, however what you do to the groups of people are highly ambiguous. Thaddeus Campbell can be spared if you manage to exile him from the Overseers, however you find him later in the game as a weeper (essentially a zombie). Ramsey can be killed, or he can be locked in the safe room until you recover the throne. The Pendletons could be killed, but you could also send them off to the bottle street gang, get their tongues removed and force them to work in their own mines. Special mention to Kirin Jindosh in the second game. He is the smartest mind of his generation, so your choice of killing the bastard, or forcing him into an electric chair and essentially lobotomise him, making him borderline childish seems like the worse option. Literally, one of his quotes after the event is "Please. Kill me...". He's a fucking awful person, but even that is too far for me thanks.

the author cant afford to kill main characters! iraki: major character death! 50 cents apeice!

Trope talk:last stands

I really enjoy your straight forward and informational style. Like you keep an aesthetic and high quality but also get the information across clearly and concisely. Love your vids! Keep up the good work!

Example batmans backstory or spiderman,batman,ironman won't kill you but put you in the hospital for years

Kipo and the Age of the Wonderbeasts handles fates worse than death the absolute best. I view it as respecting the audience enough to tell a good story, even if on paper is is just a kids show. They really go the extra mile, having pride in their work, and that will make it timeless.

*korega requiem da*

Fate worse than death is very common in Doctor Who... Very common for both heroes and enemies... One specific episode that really dug into me (not counting the gasmask children) was an episode where the main antagonist wasnt just transpformed from human into a disgusting looking alien, but he lost his individuality as well. That particular alien race were peaceful but operated under a hive mind. So while he could still live a nice life that was peaceful, he lost himself, his autonomy and freedom. Of course, being turned into a cyberman would be way worse, but there is something much more disturbing in the way he transformed on screen and just tore his own face off...cybermen usually transform off screen.

I think one series who nails the fate worse than death is Jojo although In a different sense as these happen to the antagonists with Diavolo and Kars being the main example of those fates Edit: spelling

Using my favorite game as a punching bag here don't mind me. ✋😃 Let's talk about Soul Calibur 6 and the character Curtis(spoilers for Grøh and Nightmare's stories and Libra of Soul). So, Curtis is Grøh's childhood friend and technically goes through one HELL of a fate worse than death(that, funnily enough, actually involved him dying). First, Azwel turns him Malfested using a shard of Soul Edge. Second, Grøh has to kill Curtis in self defense since he attacks Grøh, you heard me right, KILL HIM. Third, during Libra of Soul, the Conduit comes across an Astral Fissure that has CURTIS AS IT'S BERSERKER(Libra sorta implies that where you find that Fissure is where he died, which was an underground temple that ended up collapsing after Curtis died). Lastly, Curtis is revived as a Malfested and is forced into servitude of Nightmare. To die and be reborn as not only the thing you've sworn to kill but also serve the being that directly caused the creation of that thing is what I personally consider a fate worse than death. There's also the whole concept of Guardians in Destiny(the dying and then being resurrected only to die repeatedly until someone kills your Ghost then you)is pretty in line with this too-

My favorite "Fate worse than death" is what I like to call "horrific deadpool" I have a character in a Grimdark Fantasy setting who was injected with lovecraftian god blood by evil doctors. He is made practically immortal as he can revive from having his entire body cut in half however the healing process is even more painful than the pain of the injury. The entire story is him trying to find a way to cure himself.

"I have no mouth but I must scream" has an amazing fate worth than death for the Narrator

I still hold that (Dr. Who season 10? spoilers) Bill turning into a Cyberman was an amazing example of "fate worse than death" and body horror in modern media

You should do a video on the twin characters trope. Twins in media are almost always one dimensional. They are either played out as the comic duo, the creepy ones, or polar opposites if they are given some sort of personalities. Twins are commonly depicted as finishing each other's sentences or moving/talking in unison. Some act as friend group filler, almost always sharing the same personality and having no character arks.

I'm a simple man, I see the Great Soft Jelly Thing and I click

PLEASE DO MANIC PIXIE DREAM GIRL TROPE

Imagine being in carbonite for millennia, but being able to think and see. That’s what I describe as a fate worse than death. That would MESS you up mentally.

Yep. Just as I thought. The jojo fans are here.

Human minds are not very adept at understanding either finality, or actual limitless things. The reason fates worse than death are a common occurance in fiction, is because deaths that mirror real death are very rare in fiction. Death is a short sit on the not currently present bench. Oblivion doesnt exist in stories.

"The hero actually dying is pretty unlikely." Camila Cuevas: *Maniacal laughter.*

I think one of my favorite fates worse than death comes from the season 2 villain of Wakfu, Qilby is an immortal being of the reincarnates-and-is-then-reborn variety. He is one of six people of his race who can do that, every other member of their race stays dead when they die. But Qilby has something special about him, he was given a perfect memory. He remembers all of his past lives, none of the other 5 who can be reborn have that. So he went several millennia watching his race flourish and when they reached their peak and didn’t grow any further he became bored being unable to experience anything new and incited a war that had their race flee to space, he could have gone to space alone probably, but he also has never wanted to be alone, he desires new experiences and companionship. He was punished for his crimes by being tossed into an endless void where time doesn’t move and he is all alone. It’s his literal worst nightmare.

A Fate worse than Death...Vader in Revenge of the Sith

FWTD really inspires two main reactions If you don't think about it: Kid friendly If you do think about it and its implications: It could trivialize every single horrific crime in human history so far by comparison.

you know what we need a story where the side charcters are aware their in a story and are trying to get a good ending but the MC is an idiot and super fail but thinks he's victorious

Low key redo of a healer....

"did you learn nothing from Game of Thrones?" lol

The current mainline run of Thor comics has a villain right now that perfectly fits this concept. Seems to work to interesting effect there at least for shaping the personality and motives of the villain.

7:16 Re:Zero has entered the chat

8:00 "Edward..."

I actually find that fun red that they some kid friendly death of fall into hell fire or cliff would make it’s friendly to kids. Thou I was pretty sure back in the day that I knew the bad just died

oh so Overhaul?

One interesting aspect to the fate worse than death is sometimes the heroes will need to use it as a work-around if a villain WANTS to die. Maybe the villain wants the hero to kill them so they'll "become just like them". Maybe one of the hero's friends is the villain's next backup body. There's also the case of death-seeker villains, where the act of simply not killing them sometimes qualifies as a fate worse than death. (This one's pretty common in JRPGs)

Haha, "Anything but kittens" killed me

I'm not a sadist. On an unrelated note, let me return to my WIP where a couple of characters are learning to deal with fates worse than death.

I cannot BELIEVE Red got through this entire video without mentioning Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra ONCE! There’s so many “fates worse than death” in those shows! I honestly don’t know whether to be proud or sad

Servitors be like: been there, done that, they fuck of with the t-shirt

Um, Little Nightmares 2 spoilers I guess, but... ...It is (seemingly) an excellent example of the “Time Loop” variant of this trope.

yeah like higurashi

2:04 "If you kill off the hero, what are you going to do the next season? Try and sell us on some other protagonist?" JoJo: Yes. Yes I am.

Yeah this technically was done in NT9 for Kamachi Kazuma's Toaru franchise, however the issue is he doesn't show the effects on the Main character. A main character who's universe was torn apart and rebuilt countless times by a literal god, just to try and break him through every form of death and suffering. And we never see him show Trauma or PTSD, sure you could explain it as due to the association and the scale it's hard to trigger but you'd at least see him wake up at night in a cold sweat. Worried that even now the world he's in is false and the one he though had changed was actually playing the long con again.

Time out torture dimension is my favorite phrase now

Blob human = Made in Abyss victims to me

Here's an idea for a topic: Shapeshifters and/or impostors, especially when one of the characters has to make the "which one is the real you, and which one do I shoot" decision.

Gibbering Mouther... people who play D&D will know EXACTLY what I’m talking about...

Rika Furude: "OH NEPTUNE"

I remember watching the first King's man where the stake was "everyone in the world will kill each other" and it felt intense to me because "Holy crap! I live on the world!" then the sequel's stakes were "All recreational drug takers would die" and since I and most of my close family didn't do that, I couldn't help but care less since I knew win or loss, I was probably gonna be physically fine.

My favorite rendition of "Psychological horror" is the Alien Comic of Dr. Church. And if you are interested in it, TRIGGER WARNING

"There are fates worse than death!" - Raiden, before reducing a certain kharacter to a still-living head, Mortal Kombat 11 "I mean, I was going to suggest being trapped in R. Kelly's basement. But yes, decapitation is also bad." - Vman, Mortal Kombat 11 - Story Mode on Very Hard (Full)

Ah yes. Burning hometown village is a cause of PTSD. Post Traumatic Sephiroth Disorder.

11:32 Is that a Jojo reference?

Which movie was it with Depardieu ?

Just as I read "Fates Worse Than Death" I thought of Hermione saying, "We will die or worse get expelled."

If you want a great example of the right of that scale, look up "SCP Red Reality"... You were warned.

Redo of healer did nothing wrong.

Can you do a vid on Leaders? Like, characters who become leaders or were leaders to begin with and just got thrown a situation more difficult than they’d ever faced idk.

Or: Being turned into a banana forced to rotate against your will.

*Guts has entered the chat* Heard ya'll were talkin about suffering.

As far as Tropes go, this one feels like it should be split into two different categories, with the original “Fate worse than death” and “I can’t believe its not death, the none dairy substitute for mortality”

_"Eventually, he stopped thinking"_

You know that TV series called Lost, yeah the weird one. Stuck on island, things are weird, I’d love if you talked about it, because it felt like a fever dream. I’m not even sure the tv show is even real, it seriously is strange

Immediately thinks of one of the best stories I've ever read: Worm, where everything that "isn't supposed to happen" totally can.

Just had a thought that “cursed royalty” would be a really cool trope to talk about

I love yall but very drubk and need more chioll like blue

Red: talks about fates worse than death Jojo villains: are we a joke to you

40k Servitor - the removal of cognitive functions etc

All I can think of is the smiling victims of the joker from the animated series

My favorite worse than death scenario is what is described in SCP 2718, it basically tells that after death you are still conscious and can feel pain, even parts of you that are not connected to you you can feel, just pain and suffering for the rest of eternity

anybody wanna kill off their main character in the 4th chapter

Reiner Braun be like

Shoutout to the Magnus Archives for doing all of these things! This is fine everything is fine 👍

Ah yes, the fate worse than death....also known as having a one way trip to Commorragh

I've recently encountered a twist on the whole "fate worse than death" thing in a Luke Correia video. Comic Setting: a grocery store produce aisle Woman: "Is this hell?" Man:"In what sense?" Woman:"The present moment is both eternal and painful." Man:"In hell, there is relief in utter helplessness. Here, our actions have consequences for both ourselves and others." Woman:"Truly, it is worse." I don't want to bother looking up the original but just look for "truly, it is worse" if you want to be pointed to the video

To me immortality is a pretty bad fate. Like have you ever thought that every one you meet will be eventually die? Also I Dont want to deal with Karen’s forever

I genuinely wonder which fictional universe truly has the worst "fate worse than death". Personally, my money is on Warhammer 40k where both the Daemonculaba and the Dark Eldar's Haemonculi exist.

4:06 time to go to the shadow realm jimbo

As soon as I saw the title of the video I was going to mention “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream.” I am both so happy and so so concerned that Red said it! I would recommend it to anyone reading this as it’s a pretty incredible short story, but I can’t do that in good conscious :P